Curse

Longasc · May 18, 2009, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

(about Yawgmoths posting) The rest of your ideas sound more like the other MMOs you claim to dislike. I really prefer GW to them others, as well, but it seems like for a completely different reason than you.

I posted about this paradox a few postings above.

It is really interesting that people like and dislike so many totally different things in Guild Wars, and play it for so many different reasons.

There are different preferences among players of other online games, too, but in GW this seems to be extreme.

A Lonewolf · May 18, 2009, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by belladonna shylock

Though you're not wrong, I see the opposite as you. I feel it's a million times more enjoyable to chest run (in my opinion) non-inscr. items because those items are truly rare. When you get an R9 with perfect mods it makes you want to run 200 more chests that day. The same is not true with EOTN and Nightfall chests.

In my opinion, nightfall and EOTN killed the "rare" find.

This is absolutely what i feel too.

rohara · May 18, 2009, 01:02 PM // 13:02

i also wish proph and factions had inscribable weapons. i like getting a r9 perfect prophecies drop as much as the next person, but a moment's excitement doesn't outweigh the functional benefits of inscribable weapons. i won't even buy or use anything that isn't inscribable, with the exception of focii - because to hell with 'forget me not' inscription prices.

Mroziu · May 18, 2009, 01:06 PM // 13:06

There is nothing wrong with inscription system in general. Mayor problem is that this system was developed on living game, making some people unhappy.

I think that weapon/mod system in GW2 should look like this:
- no greens (this should keep mod prices in reasonable threshold)
- collector weapons (non inscriptable)as main source of pre-modded weapons for casual prayers.
- craftable common weapons (inscriptable) without inscription mods for PvP players
- craftable elite weapons (like tormented) inscriptable without inscription mods
- rare skins which should be bosses drops which could be non inscriptable

In such system, players would have access to cheap perfect weapons, but not so cool looking (but allowing them to play competitive in PvP) and there is also possibilities for those looking for uber rare items and high trades.

MithranArkanere · May 18, 2009, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

I'm cheap, I use inscribables alot simply because i have huge mounds of them, all equally perfect and boring...

I save only req9 or less perfect weapons, and sell or give away the rest. But that's because I had all my heroes filled with collector stuff. So now I just replace old stuff with new stuff. More or less, 1 out of 100 items I get is a perfect req9, and only 1 out of 500 is gold in NM, and 1 out of 50 is gold in HM. And have only found perfect req8 as common foci, although it has been proved by characters and stated by anet that req7 and req8 drop inscribed, although VERY rare.

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But I enjoyed the game FAR more when they didn't exist. It was the best back in the first few months, when ANY gold drop was a woah! moment. When nobody had anything anywhere close to being a perfect and nobody complaied about them being hard to get. Everyone was having fun playing with whatever they had and finding better things over time. 'Perfection' was out of reach and people didn't care - using nonmax purple 12^50s didn't make anyone unable to complete a mission or anything like that. There was no *need* to grind or buy expensive rares to progress in the game and having the first high quality golds fetch 100k++ectos prices had NO impact on the game of those who couldn't afford them - they simply didn't have to buy them.

And no one would complain if inscriptions were not the system for everything added since Nightfall. If a new chest were to be added to the Tombs, it would have inscribed drops, for example.
If 'inscribed' were a random extra property, and have both systems combined, most people would still prefer inscribed ones, since they would be able to change them, and since in GW items have fixed maximums, and those fixed maximums are easy to achieve by design so they are fair in PvP, there is no reasons for both to coexist, you put all of them inscribed and done, everything's fair for all that enter any arena.

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GW's item system was always very simple and primitive, but it was more appealing to me and showing great *potential* than those used in other MMO's (based on straight enforced progression into much better and better tiers of gear, instant soulbinding of the best gear or having a system of upgrading to uber power levels with increasing risk of breaking the item, resulting in the need for unlimited grind). All the potential unfortunately got wasted as subsequent updates only made it easier and easier to reach absolute perfection and reproducing more and more of the same, instead of expanding the system into more possibilities.

The idea in GW is to get to the max fast, and then play with the max achieved.
If you want a game with more levels for characters and equipment, or in which there is always a 'better item' waiting to be found, maybe you should look somewhere else, or wait until GW2.
In GWO, you hit the max soon, and modding is meant to be somehow quick.

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Right now the closest to my ideal dropsystem exists only in Pre-Searing. For many kinds of items theres simply no perfection at all, instead among the sea of mediocre and bad there are some good, great, or amazing drops! Number of possibilities is so high many high-end items are one-of-a-kind and getting a good drop *really* feels great when you know it can't be just copied by anyone from a few cheap components.

Now there is no problem! I would absolutely agree to keep the old drop system in pre-Searing only. Then all you have to do is stay there forever, and leave the rest of the game to the rest of players.

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And the best of all are PreSearing STAFFS - they have as many as 5 variable unchangable values (HSR, +Energy, Dmg range, requirement, inherent hct mod) depending on each other in a certain way and giving a huge variety of possibilities... yet the mediocre ones are perfectly usable and enough to pwn the charr.

No, they have as much as 3 unchangable values. The staff head and wrapping can be changed thanks to Charr Kits.
And if you need one good staff, all you have to do is get the 2005 million edition update, and you get an hourglass staff.

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*** Way to go for GW2:
-Items MUST have some unchangable values differentiating their quality. They should be generated randomly but the system should be designed in such a way that those random values don't make the vast majority of rare items near useless because of coming in very odd mixes -minimize the amount of bad combos, make some mods define what the item is supposted to do, just make them vary by numeric values (see Staffs in PreSearing)
-Moddability should only be used to adjust an item to better fit playstyles or builds, but shouldn't make a common item into a perfect.
-There should be NO such thing as a strictly defined and obtainable 'perfect' at all. Instead there should ALWAYS be a possibility for finding a better one, even if only a tiny bit better. The high level plateau of power shouldn't be totally flat, following the hopefully no max char level system.
-Players don't like imperfections - don't make them clearly visible! Use the "Above the max" philosophy instead! If the expected 'max' is say +50 make the mod occassionally drop as a +51, or in very rare cases +52, and who knows if +53 is possible or not? Also, having multiple variable unchangable values connected to each other in a certain way so whole items won't appear Strictly Better than other ones, which can add a lot of depth.
-Watch carefully the fixed stat 'unique' (green) items, they're prone to overfarm and heavily impact the value of every other similar item. They should be either inferior to some of the better 'golds' of the same area or customized on pickup (as much as I hate this mechanic, it may be a must for the greens)
-Players do want Uber weapons even if they don't admit that. Make the bestest weapons feel really Uber without being significantly more powerful than typical high-level stuff. Combine the best aspects of the gear-based MMO's with the casual-friendly GW philosophy, make a system where no progression into hard to get rares is *required* but where such progression is possible in a balanced way, say uber = ~3-5% above the 'max' accessible for the masses.
-Looks is not everything, there should be room for a little statwise progression and truly unique stats and effects.
-But looks are very important to many, so instead of reducing an item to 'a skin' and 'a pile of separate mods' add a way to transfer *full stats* of one item into a skin of another one of similar or lesser rarity level, resulting in destruction of whole 2 old items and creation of 1 new item, which should be customized to character that did the transformation. Note that this doesn't create new value, but it's a great sink removing top stat weapons AND top looking weapons from the economy, this process could also be a major goldsink.
-But that thing should be only the last resort - the most rare epic skins should be automatically of better quality than typical rare of the same level, so there's no "I found a Crystalline but it's crap" without resorting to something as lame as full moddability.
- Weapons and Mods should leave the economy almost as fast as they enter it - add severe penalties for using not customized weapons, and mods put on an item by a player should not be recoverable without complete destruction of the item it's salvaged from.
-Player based crafting can be a great thing, but don't make it a game of building blocks, significant randomization is important when it comes to magic modifiers on items.

Way o go for GW2?
- First of all: CUSTOMIZE TO USE. No more eating a cake for a while, and then having it again to sell it when you get bored of it. You can't use a sword a giant was using or a dragon swallowed unless a weaponsmith uses his 13375 magiks to fix it into something you can use. Items should be either for use or for sell, but never both. Once an item is customized, it can be used only by characters of that account, and not even merchants would pay for it. Only things left for it would be usage, salvage or discard.
- The only unchangeable values an item needs is the basic properties that define the item. In the case of a sword, it would be its damage, in the case of a shield, it would be its defense. In the case of a 'flaming sword', it would be 'dealing flame damage instead slashing' and its damage numbers. Anything else would just be extras that can be changed and modified.
- Moddability should be just like in GW1: only be used to adjust an item to better fit playstyles or builds, but shouldn't make a common item into a perfect. An item that requires someting and having a certain damage would stay as requiring that something and having such certain damage, regardless of the mods you add, just like in GWO.
- The should be perfectly defined maximums for items: the ones defined for PvP. Anything beyond that would be PvE-only and become leveled to the PvP maximums upon entering PvP.
- Scape the 'King of the Hill' system many games use. There shouldn't be always a better item waiting, once you have reach the maximums, all that counts would be functionality, skins and PvE-only extra properties. A new different cool skin you may want to use with your armor will be waiting for you instead another stick like the last one that just happens to deal more damage.
- Unique items would be:
** With properties never found in any other items like those, that will be, of course, unique PvE-only properties disabled in PvP.
** No unique skins. There would be unique item for each skin, that would be noted with a different color name and an unique glow around the hands that hold it when equipped, or something like that. No two uniques with the same skin, no skin only for an unique.
** Grow with the user. There should never be two greens with the same properties. Once customized, their properties will go with the level of the user, but the fun of it is that the monsters that drop the greens (and his lackeys) will also ignore the levels of the party that fights them, so they would be as hard for those that fight at level 10 that for those that fight them at level 100.
- Since it will be a game with more levels, perfect items only would appear after a certain point of the game in PvE, where monsters start to have high levels. Skins should never be linked to levels of the item, just to the base attributes, i.e., A jitte has blunt damage, a flaming sword flaming damage.
- A set of PvP properties that all items will have. Any extra properties an item has would be PvE only. The idea is that when fighting others, the one that leveled more and has higher level items will not be the one with the upper hand.
- Since there will be no PvP characters, a PvE chracter must turn into a PvP character upon entering PvP. All PvP properties items have would become maxed when they enter PvP, and all PvE properties are disabled.

Pleikki · May 18, 2009, 02:04 PM // 14:04

So. ppl complaining that they havent found useful non inscriables. tell me. in use 15% 14% and 13% mods are equal. so i bet loads ppl found 14% or 13%, just, its not perfect so they say its crap. back in 2005-2006 it didnt matter.
now it does even when theres techically no difference.
tell me, now with inscription. how many ppl you know using r9 insc crystalline with 14^50 mod?, but when there was no inscription.
14% was good, and equal to 15%.

Sure, its true that its hard to find good items non insc, but also as inscriable. ive played for 48months, and never had drop worth above 30k. inscriable or non. But still. found thousands of useful items, that are crap, because theyre 1point off, or req higher then 9.

Yawgmoth · May 18, 2009, 02:53 PM // 14:53

@arcanemacabre

small clarification needed if you didn't understand:

players didn't want perfection back in early 2005 because it was so out of reach. It has turned 180degrees when perfection became so easy that even 1% off is considered trash even when it has no impact on the game.
And players do want Uber weapons, in every mmo, even in GW, 4 years ago and now. But sometimes they just have to be satisfied with the closest substitutes.

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Why? What is so great about having items with unchangeable values? In my world, that makes NO sense. What is so evil about customization and more options?

There are plenty of resons, the fun of hunting for them and collecting them is just the beginning.
From game design point of view having one weapon, lets say a single sword to be able to perform ALL the possible roles a sword could have in the whole game thanks to just easy modding is a horrible mistake. This mistake creates a huge avalanche of problems!

Just imagine (you may have problems here)... a player finds a sword, it's fully moddable and functionally without any flaws. That player also likes how it looks. He gets some mods and boom! End of the game! He may not even need another one ever, as he can reuse this one for all builds thanks to infinite remodding. Of course on his journeys that player will find dozens of swords, none of which better than his first one. The player realizes there's not even a smallest hope of finding something better because all the drops are equal, equally perfect, equally BOOOOOOOORRRRIIINNGGG!

it's just the beginning.

I have met DOZENS of totally disappointed players in game, who just realized their 15-22 sword they just got from a chest or bought for 1k in kamadan is max and can't be better

It usually goes like:
*they: WTB good sword 5k.
I show them a bunch of decent gold max insc swords
*they: shows his 15-22 the thought was a complete junk he got after 2 days into the game, and says 'pffft, not better than mine' and closes trade.
I explain then: 15-22 is max dmg for sword, there's no higher in this game.
*they: <shocked> omg this game sucks.

HAPPENED countless times to me since relese of Nightfall.
It was better before, at least the first cheap 15-22 sword players had most likely wasn't a +15^50 so there was some room for progression, and with perfect mods costing

It's not the end of problems here... having that 1 nice looking max dmg fully moddable sword creates the problem of overfarm of just one zone. Why would a player go anywhere else if he can farm just 1 mob that drops 'a sword' and he functionally has ANY sword in game.

A proper design would be to have some qualities of the sword which cannot be changed, and make them differ in various drop locations, and even better, make them also randomized so even one area will drop a selection of functionally DIFFERENT swords. Their quality should also differ, not every single purple or gold should have identical damage range or numerical value of inherent modifiers. Multiple variable unchangable values create DIFFERENT weapons, better or worse, or just different. So a player finding 10 swords will keep the best one, merch the worst ones and maybe try to sell to players 2nd best one. It will feel allright, because a higher stat will clearly show the player which ones are mediocre and which are better.

But in Nightfall that player may find that 10 swords and they will all be the same max damage and inscribable, he will want to keep 1 or 2 to use if they're his first ones, but he'll feel awkward merching 8 others which are just AS GOOD as the ones he's using. And he feels HOPELESS that he will never find anything better...

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It has EXACTLY the same impact on them as having inscriptions exist does on you.

it's EXACTLY opposite. You fail at reasoning. I'll waste my precious time and explain:
Back when players were happy with almost every random gold they found the existance of the few best ones which
Now the EXACTLY Opposite impact have the inscriptions on me - the mere existance of them make my nice Tyrian drops worth much less, badly hurting my satisfaction from finding say a Gold max req.9 Tyrian Fellblade +15^50. Yes it's still *ORIGINAL* and feels much cooler because of that, but overabundant lame insc. clones out there DO negatively impact it's value, and I'm not even talking about market value.

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I like unique stats and effects; that sounds cool. Make 'em purely cosmetic and we have a deal!

Enough with purely cosmetic 'advantages', GW2 is a new game and should NOT have the dumb limitations of GW1, the absolute 100% item equality in PvE. It should just use a model closer to GW1 than any other MMO known to me, but with some new twists like removing the strict caps.

...

god... i can't respond everyone, it would take whole days and epic walls of text.

glacialphoenix · May 18, 2009, 03:01 PM // 15:01

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But in Nightfall that player may find that 10 swords and they will all be the same max damage and inscribable, he will want to keep 1 or 2 to use if they're his first ones, but he'll feel awkward merching 8 others which are just AS GOOD as the ones he's using. And he feels HOPELESS that he will never find anything better...

I'm sorry, I think you're putting words into other people's mouths here. Your satisfaction is not others' satisfaction. The problem with this argument - the 'inscriptions are good/bad' one in general, that is - is that it's really subjective. Some of us like inscriptions, some don't, some don't really care as long as they can get something they can use.

You can cite all the impacts it has on you as a player, but they will remain impacts on you. And that last one applies for everybody, really.

Longasc · May 18, 2009, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Yeah, players are shocked that there are only 20 levels. And 15-22 max for a sword.

They already won the game, it seems? :>

They just want to play the run of the mill MMO. They are playing the wrong game. They want GW to be just like that, F2P WoW.

As if there would not be enough games out there that offer +10 levels every expansion.

The advantage of GW1 was that it was not about a power progression based on gear. I hope this is not too difficult to grasp. :P

MithranArkanere · May 18, 2009, 03:40 PM // 15:40

When most people I know learn that there are so 'low' maximums compared to other games, some fin it weird, but most find it good, since they don't have to level before play, but play after level.

And I know some D&D players that find the 20 level limit quite accceptable.

And we know that even in GW2 level will mean just more experience, not much more strenght, since power will have a cap, and after it more levels mean much less addition of power.

blood4blood · May 18, 2009, 05:34 PM // 17:34

I just wish inscribable items were a different color than the standard blue/purple/gold progression, since those colors and the corresponding "rarity" are meaningless when dealing with inscriptions. Req8 blue <item> with max stats is better than req9 purple is better than req10 gold if all are inscribable and same skin, but most people reject all of them because they only want gold req7-8-9's. It makes sense with non-inscribables since they instituted the limit where blues and purples cannot have max inherent mods, so the colors actually mean something, but with inscriptions, that just isn't true.

Otherwise, I enjoy both systems. Inscriptions are more useful on a practical level for building whatever stat weapons you want quickly and easily, but non-inscribed items are more fun from a collector's standpoint.

UnChosen · May 19, 2009, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

...

Agreed. I was also one of the people against inscriptions back in that huuggee thread long time ago. With the availability of cheap collectors and crafter items I never saw the reason for this system in the first place. Now all the items collector are shafted because 90% of gold items in the game became worthless. Crafter items became obsolete because a cheapo inscription clone gold can be gotten for just a bit more.

Well at least we're compensated with with pointless minis which can't even be seen unless I zoom all the way into the ground, and everlasting tonics which can't even be used in battle...[/Sarcasm]

Qing Guang · May 19, 2009, 02:22 AM // 02:22

I know this post has been responded to several times over, but it's the one that best states the opposing viewpoint:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

But I enjoyed the game FAR more when they didn't exist. It was the best back in the first few months, when ANY gold drop was a woah! moment. When nobody had anything anywhere close to being a perfect and nobody complaied about them being hard to get. Everyone was having fun playing with whatever they had and finding better things over time. 'Perfection' was out of reach and people didn't care - using nonmax purple 12^50s didn't make anyone unable to complete a mission or anything like that. There was no *need* to grind or buy expensive rares to progress in the game and having the first high quality golds fetch 100k++ectos prices had NO impact on the game of those who couldn't afford them - they simply didn't have to buy them.

So basically... *does her best wheezy old man voice* "You spoiled children, always wanting to be perfect... Back in my day, we used whatever worthless grapes we could find - AND WE LIKED IT!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

GW's item system was always very simple and primitive, but it was more appealing to me and showing great *potential* than those used in other MMO's (based on straight enforced progression into much better and better tiers of gear, instant soulbinding of the best gear or having a system of upgrading to uber power levels with increasing risk of breaking the item, resulting in the need for unlimited grind). All the potential unfortunately got wasted as subsequent updates only made it easier and easier to reach absolute perfection and reproducing more and more of the same, instead of expanding the system into more possibilities.

Okay, so a progression of better and better loot is bad, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

-There should be NO such thing as a strictly defined and obtainable 'perfect' at all. Instead there should ALWAYS be a possibility for finding a better one, even if only a tiny bit better. The high level plateau of power shouldn't be totally flat, following the hopefully no max char level system.

Wait, what? You just said... *confused by self-contradictory viewpoint* Do you or do you not want a steady progression of increasing gear power?

Oh, and @UnChosen: But... what the topic is suggesting would solve the worthless collector thing! People don't use armor collectors because the armor can't take insignias. People don't use weapon collectors because the weapons can't be inscribed. If they were inscribable, people would again return to the collectors to get relatively "free" items. Oh, and I don't think weapon crafters are obsolete because of inscriptions - I'd bet it's got more to do with their insane price of 5-10k per (which is probably there so that people are encouraged to actually try and find their weapons in the wild). Heck, I bit the bullet and got a pair of bronze daggers crafted only a couple months ago because I couldn't find a decent pair anywhere with the mods I wanted, I had the cash lying around, and I had an inscription I wanted to use. Have crafters give us inscribables, and they'll get more traffic too.

UnChosen · May 19, 2009, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qing Guang

Oh, and @UnChosen: But... what the topic is suggesting would solve the worthless collector thing! People don't use armor collectors because the armor can't take insignias. People don't use weapon collectors because the weapons can't be inscribed. If they were inscribable, people would again return to the collectors to get relatively "free" items. Oh, and I don't think weapon crafters are obsolete because of inscriptions - I'd bet it's got more to do with their insane price of 5-10k per (which is probably there so that people are encouraged to actually try and find their weapons in the wild). Heck, I bit the bullet and got a pair of bronze daggers crafted only a couple months ago because I couldn't find a decent pair anywhere with the mods I wanted, I had the cash lying around, and I had an inscription I wanted to use. Have crafters give us inscribables, and they'll get more traffic too.

Which is what Anet should've done from the beginning -.-, make collectors/crafter items cheap and inscribable (this is what I actually suggested long time ago too), and leave all the gold items alone, or make a few of the common and "uglier" gold items inscribable as well just to have more choices than just the generic items.

Or, they could've just made a separate set of skins that are hard to get and only available without inscription, which would've been fine with me also.

But instead they just went and made everything inscribable, including some of the rare prophecies/faction skins (Hall chest anyone?), while giving nothing to the less casual players. Titles/mini/everlasting does not count.

glacialphoenix · May 19, 2009, 03:59 AM // 03:59

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Have crafters give us inscribables, and they'll get more traffic too.

Noooo. *clings very tightly to the crafter she uses to get her 40/40 sets

I really think some of them are far more affordable than the alternatives, and their unique counterparts are hard to find, if they exist - I haven't found an alternative for a craftable/collectable restoration 20/20 focus!

I think it's partly because crafters don't sell the pretty skins. They're really good for filling in gaps in your weaponsets if you don't care about how they look, but for those who want the expensive skins... well, why buy a plain 20/20 focus when you can get a Celestial Compass and inscribe it? The former is significantly cheaper, but the second one is prettier. People do want pretty skins, 'prestige' skins. They're willing to spend stacks of ecto on a BDS because they like it. Nothing a crafter can offer has that kind of rarity value.

The same applies for collectors. They may be cheaper to get, but some of the things can be pretty annoying - 5 dessicated hydra claws will get me a 20/20 healing focus. Not a lot of claws, overall, but I dislike hydras. I tried to get a 20/20 restoration focus (5 truffles), couldn't find the truffles either, gave up, spent the 5k to craft it. Maybe it's the inconvenience + lack of pretty factor, is what I'm saying. Maybe. I can't judge for others.

Tommy's · May 19, 2009, 09:32 AM // 09:32

I kind of hate Anet for introducing inscription ( and keg farming ) in the old days, was so happy found a 20/20 mod for something. Now I'm merching them >.>
But I have to thank Anet for not making everything come in mods. like 15/-1 weapons, +10vs +20%vs and dual attribute staffs.
I would love to play the game again without nightfall and gw:en, but with HM ofcourse ^^

ogre_jd · May 19, 2009, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crucist Ovv

I kind of hate Anet for introducing inscription ( and keg farming )

Oh, come on. They did not 'introduce' keg farming. There is no reasonable way they could've expected people, even with the existance of Shadow Form of any strength, to drag Budger Blackpowder through 3 zones to a specific dense spawning area.

MithranArkanere · May 19, 2009, 02:04 PM // 14:04

But we KNOW since the Prophecies that big mobs composed of a single type of creature are easily farmed.

Yet they added then in several places again. For example:
- Vermin in Kaineng.
- Spiders in kourna.
- Monothiths in the Desolation.
- Espectral Vaettir in the Norn lands.
- Raptors in Asura lands.

All of them easily farmable. Keg farming is just a method, bu first you need the mob.

Mordakai · May 19, 2009, 03:23 PM // 15:23

I wonder...

IF Guild Wars 2 has no level cap (possible)....

Will PvE weapons follow suit? (Obviously, PvP will have caps).

I don't know how I feel about it. I don't understand how people play WoW, knowing all the grind they do to get perfect armor and weapon sets will be worthless once the new expansion hits and random drops are better!

Pleikki · May 19, 2009, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

But we KNOW since the Prophecies that big mobs composed of a single type of creature are easily farmed.

Yet they added then in several places again. For example:
- Vermin in Kaineng.
- Spiders in kourna.
- Monothiths in the Desolation.
- Espectral Vaettir in the Norn lands.
- Raptors in Asura lands.

All of them easily farmable. Keg farming is just a method, bu first you need the mob.

well in tyria there was many places aswell aswell
- Griffons in Desert
- Ettins in Kryta
- Trolls in Shiverpeaks
- Hydras in Desert
- White mantle in Jungle